WOW. No wonder that preening windbag
on More Socialist NBC would NEVER want this interview to air, much less
even exist --- no thrills up his legs here!!
There are quotes from His Holiness
here that are worth copying and savoring.
I am greater admirer.
I guess the new Pope doesn't believe
in mincing words!
This is a must read. It is long but
worth the read.
I assure you, that taking the time to
read this interview by Chris Mathews of the then soon-to-be Pope, will
make your day – religiously and secularly. This Pope could well be the
Savior of a society that is heading hell bent for leather toward
destruction of all values and the creation of poverty. Subject: OUR NEW
POPE ,YOU DECIDE
A SOCIALIST CATHOLIC REPORTER, CHRIS
MATHEWS, CHALLENGES OUR NEW POPE AND GET HIS HEAD HANDED TO HIM ON A
PLATTER. LONG READ--WELL WORTH YOUR TIME
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A CATHOLIC TO
APPRECIATE THIS INTERVIEW WITH THE NEW POPE.
The following is a transcript of an
interview between CHRIS MATHEWS, MSNBC American journalist and
then-Cardinal Bergolio. It is clear why the interview was never
broadcast. This Pope is a breath of fresh air; a very enlightening,
clear understanding of social justice. It is clear that Matthews never
understood or learned a thing.
CAMERA ON / BEGIN TRANSCRIPT
MATHEWS: Welcome Cardinal.
BERGOGLIO: Thank you. Happy to speak with you.
MATHEWS: Well, let me get into it directly. Last
conclave, you were almost elected Pope. Can this happen again?
BERGOGLIO: What? That I will almost be the Pope,
again?
MATHEWS: No. Will you be the next Pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I'm only jesting with you. I
understand the question. I will not be the next Pope
MATHEWS: Why not?
BERGOGLIO: I chose not to. God has someone else in
mind I'm certain.
MATHEWS: But you would take the job if it were
offered.
BERGOGLIO: I think not.
MATHEWS: Why not.
BERGOGLIO: I believe I'm too embroiled in the secular
fiasco. It is a spiritual job, and I'm a soldier. Look at the nature of
power. In Europe first and now in America , elected men have taken it
upon themselves to indebt their people to create an atmosphere of
dependency. And why? For their own selfish need to increase their own
personal power. I've been a keen observer of the effect this has on the
people, especially the poor. They are very good at creating poverty
where there is no reason to explain it. My job is try to alleviate
poverty and if that means to oppose the cause then I will not be Pope.
MATHEWS: But you are worried you would be a spend
thrift pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend. Where did you go to school?
MATHEWS: La Salle College High School in Pennsylvania
and.
BERGOGLIO: And after that?
MATHEWS: College of the Holy Cross.
BERGOGLIO: They told me you were Catholic. Once
elected, the Pope is by virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the
Pope is preserved from the possibility of error. God would change any
spend thrift politician into a responsible Pope. I'm just saying I'm not
that man.
MATHEWS: So what is your job?
BERGOGLIO: My job is to ask you? Why are men creating
poverty?
MATHEWS: What do you mean?
BERGOGLIO: I mean that poverty is part of the natural
condition and that is bad enough. But my task is to prevent the
aggravation of this condition. The ideology that adds to the poverty
must be denounced. I have and this is the reason I will not be Pope. I
have a saying for myself, no more poverty than God originally intended
in the fall from Grace?
MATHEWS: Oh.
BERGOGLIO: It is a spiritual choice, and I'm a
political person. I'm sorry. I know you will make more money from this
interview if I'm Pope. Or want to be Pope. But I'm sorry. I can't help
you. God has already chosen someone anyway. Right? You learned this in
school?
MATHEWS: Yes. Well? Where are you on the issues that
matter most, issues about contraception, women priests?
BERGOGLIO: This might be a surprise to you, but I am
Catholic. We are Catholic. It isn't an issue and for you to pretend that
it is being debated goes against God.
MATHEWS: If you were Pope, then you would not change
anything.
BERGOGLIO: Certainly God would direct the new Pope to
have more compassion for these newly created poor. And if there is any
social justice in the Church, the new Pope would have a stern word for
the creators of the new situation.
MATHEWS: But you are staunchly orthodox on the issues
of abortion, contraception, and same-sex marriage.
BERGOGLIO: I am Catholic.
MATHEWS: You were punished for opposed same-sex
marriage in Argentina . You opposed free contraception and the
government exiled you. What do you have to say about that?
BERGOGLIO: I am Catholic.
MATHEWS: In the secular world, as you say, you follow
the conservative line. You oppose, uh, same-sex marriages, very popular
with young people. You are conservative on birth control. Won't that be
the doom of the Church, alienating young people who support reality
based faith?
BERGOGLIO: Since God created the world, he also
created reality. You seem to be arguing that a man can't be Catholic in
reality. Son, you are a Catholic?
MATHEWS: Yes, of course. I meant no disrespect
BERGOGLIO: You don't have to worry about offending me.
MATHEWS: Okay, good. Can a, uh, Pope even be elected
if he is pro-choice or pro-love? I mean isn't the election sort of fixed
in favor of anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, the election is fixed by God.
MATHEWS: Very witty.
BERGOGLIO: Well, you did ask.
MATHEWS: It is being reported in America that you are
against marriage equality. Is that why you feel that you can't be Pope?
BERGOGLIO: God chooses the Pope, and God also made men
and women different.
MATHEWS: But you are... a conservative and oppose
abortion!
BERGOGLIO: Friend the expression on your face gives
you away.
MATHEWS: I'm sorry, I'm just trying to do my job.
BERGOGLIO: And what job is that?
MATHEWS: I've been sent to interview eight men in line
for the papacy.
BERGOGLIO: And I guarantee you that they all oppose
abortion. So?
MATHEWS: But?
BERGOGLIO: So, you feel like you need to alienate the
eight from the flock?
MATHEWS: That isn't it. How can the church attract
young people when it is opposed to abortion and contraception?
BERGOGLIO: Young people are just as attracted to the
truth as they are convenience and expediency. So we will call it a draw.
MATHEWS: Doesn't the church need to modernize?
BERGOGLIO: Finally, I've met someone who will advocate
publicly painting over the Sistine Chapel with one of the contemporary
street artists. Are you sure you support this and in public?
MATHEWS: What?
BERGOGLIO: Forgive me, I was rude.
MATHEWS: Won't the new pope, don't these cardinals
realize what they've gotta do if they want to attract young people to
the church?
BERGOGLIO: I am a cardinal.
MATHEWS: Won't the new pope, don't you and the other
cardinals realize what they must do if they want to attract young people
to the church?
BERGOGLIO: I've explained the mysteries of the atom to
rural young people and also I've explained the Grace of God. And you
know what? They can understand both perfectly well. Frankly, I have more
trouble with adults understanding both.
MATHEWS: But they have done focus groups; if you want
to spread your message you can't have this position that's anti-gay
marriage and anti-contraception.
BERGOGLIO: And you treat the church as a political
institution.
MATHEWS: So we were not gonna see any kind of change
when it comes to things that matter like abortion or gay marriage?
BERGOGLIO: All eight of the men you will be talking to
are Catholic.
MATHEWS: Okay, I understand. Let's talk about your
controversial stand on poverty.
BERGOGLIO: You want it to be controversial?
MATHEWS: But don't you blame various governments
around the world for poverty?
BERGOGLIO: Some. Yes.
MATHEWS: But you refuse to blame corporations for
their role.
BERGOGLIO: Okay, they also told me you have a degree
in economics. No buyer, or seller either, enters into any exchange
against his will. It is the nature of the economy. Man is frail, and he
makes mistakes and sometimes is greedy and they enter into exchanges
that don't help them. Sometimes they become poor, but they made choices.
There is nothing the Church can do except try to educate people to
become good consumers. Chiefly, for me, it is an education solution on
that side. And the Church has more schools around the globe than any
other faith. I say teach the people to save their souls, and also teach
them how not to become poor. And now not to allow the government to
trick them into poverty.
MATHEWS: And you blame government.
BERGOGLIO: No, I blame the self-serving politicians.
MATHEWS: So your solution to poverty is to change the
nature of politics?
BERGOGLIO: Please feel free to broadcast this; I don't
want to be pope. Friend, you are a socialist and your friends are
socialists. And you are the reason for 70 years of misery in Russia and
Europe now is seizing in pain from your policies. You believe in the
redistribution of wealth and it makes entire populations poor. You want
to nationalize everything and bring every human endeavor under your
control. You destroy a man's incentive to take care of his very own
family, a crime against nature and nature's God. You want social control
over populations and incrementally you are making everything against the
law. Together this ideology creates more poverty today than all the
corporations you vilify have in the history of man.
MATHEWS: I've never heard such from a Cardinal. I'm
not sure if you are here to help yourself or disqualify yourself.
BERGOGLIO: Please air this interview. People being
dominated by socialists need to know we don't all have to be poor. Some
poverty is part of our being cast out of the Garden of Eden. But look at
the empire of dependency created by Hugo Chavez. Promising them,
tricking them into worship of government and his very own person. Giving
them fish but not allowing them to fish. If a fisherman does develop a
talent today in Latin America ; he is castigated and his catch stolen by
the socialists. He stops?
MATHEWS: You would be the first pope from the Americas
.
BERGOGLIO: He stops fishing. I will not be pope, but
yes I am from Argentina .
MATHEWS: And you didn't want to be pope?
BERGOGLIO: God didn't want me to be pope.
MATHEWS: Perhaps he changed his mind.
BERGOGLIO: Ludicrous.
MATHEWS: Okay, I'm sorry. I feel like we are getting
off on the wrong path. I'm sorry.
BERGOGLIO: Yes, let's be productive.
MATHEWS: You are a classic conservative Catholic
theologian?
BERGOGLIO: Of course there's politics clearly in the
Curia throughout the Vatican , but in terms of church teaching, it's not
a political institution. It's religious.
MATHEWS: I heard people, in fact, media people, "Is
this cardinal, is he a liberal? Is he a conservative?"
BERGOGLIO: Tell them please, He's a Catholic. It's no
more complicated than that. Catholicism is what it is. You don't have to
believe it; you may not. You don't have to follow it; you may not go to
Mass. But it's not up to you to modernize us.
MATHEWS: You see no room for reform?
BERGOGLIO: It's not up to any religion, although some
do this, 'cause they want the money. They want the membership. But the
Catholic Church doesn't do it. It's not up to them to bend and shape and
mold itself to accommodate the shrinking depravity of a worldwide
culture. It's to provide the exact opposite. It's to provide a beacon
out of depravity, socialism and sin, among other things.
MATHEWS: If pope you would be bad news for the left.
BERGOGLIO: I won't be pope. But I am opposed to
abortion. I'm opposed to euthanasia. The pro-choice movement is a
culture of death. I oppose the demonic same-sex marriage. I oppose gay
adoption on the grounds that it is discriminatory to the child. I was
exiled by the Cristina Kirchner government, but I hold no grudge. How is
this bad news?
MATHEWS: John Paul II rescued you?
BERGOGLIO: He made me the archbishop of Buenos Aires .
Yes.
MATHEWS: And so you feel like you owe the Right some
sort of repayment?
BERGOGLIO: There are many values and many types of
people. Perhaps it is my interest in mathematics, but I'm the type of
human who is interested most in the truth. God gave me a healthy love
for the truth. Loyalty is only a virtue if in support of the truth or
another important value.
MATHEWS: Cristina Kirchner said you held a grudge.
BERGOGLIO: Funny I've never spoken her name. Not once.
And it is a battle of ideas not a battle of two or more people. I'm only
concerned with ideas.
MATHEWS: She said you refused to speak up for civil
rights violations.
BERGOGLIO: As a spiritual leader, I opposed cultural
modernization, and so I became a political enemy. I understand politics
as well as I do mathematics.
MATHEWS: And the Jesuits, they were eager to cast you
out, which they did.
BERGOGLIO: So you are implying that I'm a vengeful
priest?
MATHEWS: Do you feel that you need to erase the
progress recently made in Latin America ?
BERGOGLIO: I say poverty. You say progress.
MATHEWS: Let's talk about poverty.
BERGOGLIO: Sure, there is voluntary poverty that is
virtuous. Many understood the nobility of making themselves independent
of the fleeting things of earth. They are distractions from our pursuit
of the truth. I have no problem with this. I only oppose involuntary
poverty.
MATHEWS: That is what I thought you would say.
BERGOGLIO: Why?
MATHEWS: Because you are a capitalist right?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, I think capital is needed to build a
factory, a parochial school, or a church or hospital, all. Do you oppose
factories or churches or hospitals?
MATHEWS: Of course not, but don't you think the
capital is sucked out of peoples hands by greedy business types to pay
for these factories?
BERGOGLIO: No, I think people agree, through their
economic choices, that some of their money goes to build these. Capital
building should be voluntary. Only when the politician confiscates their
wealth to build government factories, government schools, government
hospitals; only then do the people not agree. Money given voluntarily is
legitimate to build with. Money coerced from the people is not
legitimate to build with, because it isn't given voluntarily.
MATHEWS: You are opposed to all government?
BERGOGLIO: No of course not. But it isn't the seat of
wisdom in any society I've seen in my life. The best government was
created by the Americans, in which they admitted that people are endowed
by their creator and most of the administration of society was left to
the relationship between God and man. However, slowly that has been
eroded by the atheists on the left who would replace man's relationship
with God with a new relationship with an opportunist like Hugo Chavez.
MATHEWS: I just found it fascinating that you were
willing to stand up to an entire government in Argentina . You where
cast aside. Didn't you care about your career?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, there are people who cave to worldly
authority. Even priests.
MATHEWS: But you didn't?
BERGOGLIO: No, I changed nothing. How did I have the
power to change anything in church teaching? My opinion? The democrats,
seeking votes, only wanted me to change my opinion and legitimize their
decadence. I did not, as evidenced by the fact that I was teaching high
school math in small isolated town.
MATHEWS: I'm sorry that happened to you.
BERGOGLIO: Why don't you feel for others oppressed for
their interest in freedom.
MATHEWS: Freedom isn't punished anywhere, is it?
BERGOGLIO: Certainly it is.
MATHEWS: In Latin America ?
BERGOGLIO: I'm afraid Latin America is lost. The
people of the entire area are controlled by a bloc of militant socialist
regimes in the region, most prominently Venezuela , Ecuador , Bolivia
and Nicaragua . They have a gun pointed at their head. So their heart is
now captured. Who will save them at this point?
MATHEWS: So the game is over. Checkmate?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I've been studying America this
month before the Pope chose to resign. You must not have fear at
speaking the truth. It is for the salvation of souls and the recovery of
Thomas Jefferson's people. America must not fall to the new painted
communism. Even the low information voters don't want America to be sold
into slavery. I pray they cast out the money changers in their
government! What manner of government is there that condones sin?
Abomination upon abomination--giving monies for the murder of children,
giving monies for the murder of the elderly! You are an American. Your
government, My child, has been infiltrated by men of sin.
MATHEWS: These are pretty radical ideas.
BERGOGLIO: No. Perhaps reactionary. Radical means
something different. But a very long time ago, Khrushchev warned that we
cannot expect Americans to fly from capitalism to communism, but we can
assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small injections of
socialism until they suddenly awake to find out they have Communism.
This is what is happening now in an ancient bastion of freedom. How can
America save Latin America when they are slaves to the government
themselves?
MATHEWS: I'm having a hard time digesting most of
this.
BERGOGLIO: The truth can be painful. You look angry;
do you want to stop or ask a question? But you have created a new type
of state, the so-called welfare state. This has happened in order to
respond to the needs of the politically created poor. However,
intervening directly is depriving the original society of its
responsibility. Families escape responsibility in the welfare state. And
churches even escape responsibility. People stop giving to charity, and
see every poor person as the government's problem. I am a Catholic
priest, and there are no poor for me to take care of, they are made
permanently poor and the property of the politicians.
MATHEWS: I'm not sure this interview is going to work.
BERGOGLIO: You asked, and now you will listen, my son.
The social assistance state leads to a loss of human energies, and an
inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by
bureaucratic thinking than by real concern for helping people. Needs are
best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them who act
as neighbors and parish members to those in need. It should be added
that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not
simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human
need. This is not to mention the welfare states excesses and abuses.
MATHEWS: I think we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Wait. If I speak on the ordination of
women, on celibacy, on divorce, will you air this interview and my
message?
MATHEWS: No, we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Partially what irritates me to the core is
the media's inability to look at anything without looking into the cause
of the various problems. People are made poor so they will vote for the
very candidates that made them poor.
MATHEWS: Have a nice day and thanks for your time.
CAMERA OFF / END TRANSCRIPT
